When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
– Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
Just when I was beginning to think this year’s tour couldn’t get any weirder, it does.
So, lemmeseeifIgotthisstraight: Michael Rasmussen, the yellow jersey and likely winner of this year’s Tour de France, has been sent packing because he lied about where he was training in June. Apparently he was in Italy when he had told his team he was in Mexico.
David Cassani, a cycling commentator for Italy’s RAI network, claims to have seen Rasmussen in Italy during the month of June. Cassani, quoted on Danish Broadcasting Corporation’s DR website, said that he ran into Rasmussen while he was training in the Dolomites on June 13th or 14th. He is quite certain that it was Rasmussen, as Cassani knows the Danish cyclist well.
Strange doping tales couldn’t get him booted from the tour. Missed out-of-competition tests weren’t enough. Rabobank, the team he was on, gave him the heave-ho because he wasn’t honest about where he trains.
Color me stunned.
What the hell is going on over there, anyway?
Last year’s Tour came to a bizarre enough conclusion, what with the Landis scandal blowing up and everything. And Tour organizers were so worried that Landis’ presence would so taint their race that with the help of the AFLD, France’s anti-doping agency, they made him promise not to race in France this year rather than have to defend himself at two hearings at the same time.
Imagine: Last year, Alexander Vinokourov missed the Tour because too many of his teammates were implicated in Operation Puerto. This year, all of his Astana team are booted from the Tour after an A sample from a blood test allegedly comes up positive for homologous blood doping. No word yet on whether the B sample confirms the results of the A sample. But what an irony, last year his teammates’ alleged actions kept him from racing. This year, his alleged actions cause his teammates to be taken out of competition. Somewhere, tonight, I’m guessing Andreas Klöden is wishing he stayed with T-Mobile.
Imagine: Eric Boyer speaks out strongly against Vino once the fur started flying yesterday. Today, after a number of teams (including Cofidis) staged a protest over the ongoing doping problems in cycling when Stage 16 began, a story broke claiming that one rider’s A sample tested positive for testosterone on Stage 11.
An afternoon press conference confirmed that the rider who tested positive is Christian Moreni, a member of Cofidis, who was apparently picked up by the police after the race. Moreni was in today’s stage, at a time when one almost has to believe that his team leadership knew he’d tested positive. But even if they didn’t, what an irony that a member of Boyer’s squad shows him up.
According to some stories, Moreni admitted to doping, and apologized to Boyer, his teammates, family and Tour officials, and the fans. Still, the whole Cofidis team is out of the race, too. That includes outspoken anti-doping advocate and rider Bradley Wiggins, of all people. Yet another incredible irony.
Imagine: Last week Patrik Sinkewitz’ test results from a training camp in June were announced/leaked. His A sample tested positive for testosterone. T-Mobile, his team, were not bounced from the Tour, despite this revelation. Was that because the test was not conducted during the Tour, or because he’d already dropped out of the race, or because there are different rules for different riders?
It’s outrageous that an entire team should be booted from the Tour based merely on A sample results. This is not enough proof to impose sanctions on a rider or a team. Only when the B sample results confirm the A sample’s results should any action even be considered. And it’s equally outrageous that an entire team should be booted when one rider admits to doping. Where’s the justice in having other riders, who may well be clean (just ask Bradley Wiggins, he’ll tell you), tossed into the same shark-infested waters as an admitted doper?
With the whole Rasmussen story, it’s unclear whether the Rabobank team will continue in the race. What an awful way for Michael Boogerd’s career to end, though, if his team can’t continue to the finish. I’m sure this isn’t the swan song he hoped for.
And, of course, last year at this time, leaks were beginning to fly about Floyd Landis testing positive for testosterone.
One of the most trenchant commentaries on what’s been blowing up in the press today was offered by none other than Floyd Landis, himself, when he said:
LNDD’s leaked results have the potential to alter the outcome of the Tour de France before they have proved the alleged doping violation
But today it wasn’t just LNDD affecting the outcome of the Tour, it was something unprecedented: The yellow jersey’s team deciding to withdraw him from the race and fire him. Can this year’s Tour get any stranger?
sigh…….
Miss the old days..
when the strange things were:
Dave Watson jumping over Le Tour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA4N-NNNECo
Or Didi doing his worst: http://delivery.viewimages.com/xv/71423799.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193F669B259AB992A04CE02CA8B28D8C69DE5D087085AD20F80
http://www.damnfunnypictures.com/html/Didi-Senft.html
One way to make the tour weirder (but not unwelcome) would be for the arbiters of Floyd Landis’ case to announce before the end of the tour that Floyd is innocent. If it were a 3-0 decision that was strongly worded it could cause all sorts of chaos. My hunch is that they will hold their decision until after the tour has completed.
In regards to their decision my biggest hope is that what ever their decision is I hope it is a 3-0 decision and that it is so carefully written that the average person and understand accept their findings .
Rant,
The athletes are no better than pawns. Easily discarded along the road. After they get their document packages it would be interesting to see if they show the world what was in them. I am truly dubious of the testosterone test after a year of learning about the LNDD and their testing procedures. For the weirder, we are still waiting for the Landis Verdict. As strange as it may be, today I was thankful Floyd was not riding in this Tour of Chaos. Things need to change.
No one is outraged – not you Rant – that Rasmussen – who is WINNING the race is tossed out on his ass? Hey if what the scuttlebutt says is true – Rabobank KNEW BEFORE the Tour that he had missed tests, yet they went to race the Tour with him.
Now Rabobank is saying that – “look at us – we are dumping the Yellow Jersey – see how strongly we feel about following the rules” – I would believe this if not for the goings on that had been happening within Rabobank – This team is one of the oldest and most conservative, according to their image. So imagine what ruckus and termoil went on in management when Rasmussen who was supposed to ride to keep Manchov going up the big steep – told them – I ain’t doing it – I did that last year – I can win this Tour – then proceeded in doing just that. A typical “the chicken that roared” situation – But the Rasman was serious. He said: “This Tour will be won in the Mountains” – not only does he dare speak his mind in the team circle but then, the uppity chicken tells all of us how he’s going to do it. The noiv of da guy! What I think happened – Rabobank couldn’t very well come out publicly and say – “we have our designated leader (doesn’t matter that he’s not the best rider) just look folks – everybody knows Manchov is our man for this tour, just like last year” – Well hallelujah – so its not a question of who is the best rider – but who is “designated”…well that must mean then that the Tour is not about watching the best in the world riding the most fantastic race and winning – RATHER it is a question of who is “designated as their potential winners” – its not about talent at all! – Oh me gawd – how dumb can I be?
As to the “weirdness” factor – what about the fact that EVERYBODY is spending all their energies judging Loyd as to his innocence or guilt – and we all sit on our collective butts – waiting for a decision from a supposed law body that has proven itself biased – ruining racers lives just so – McQ-UCI, ASO – Le Equipe – WADA-IOC get it their way – using testing procedures that have been shown to be so full of holes and errors that they may as well be useless for any creditable scientific process – BUT IT SEEMS OUR RIGHTEOUS WRATH IN SEARCH OF THE DASTARDLY “CHEATERS” IS ALLOWING US TO SIT IN JUDGMENT OF LANDIS – because the very people behind this mess say to us “there is a problem” – how weird is that? . Makes me wonder what ever happened to our brains? Could be that I’ve gotten too much into getting my news “told” to me so I don’t have to do any thinking…wow! THAT IS WEIRD! Wonder if there are any side effects to this?
So what have I learned today? Well, ah..oh yeah – its the “DESIGNATED” guy who is supposed to win, not the best guy. If the guy is not “designated” and he is kicking the butt of the collected “chosen designated” – then more then likely he’s a “cheating doper”…WHAT ELSE? – ahhh, gi’me a second, I know this one, I think…Oh yeah…I can trust whatever anybody says as long as it is in “print” IT MUST BE TRUE! ….so how did I do, huh? did I loin anything right today Big Brother? did I?
Hi Rant,
I supposed the irony of the whole thing is that the man that the tour and the french love to hate will soon be standing on the podium next to his new prodiigy. Hilarious isn’t it. Lance Armstrong back on the podium. Who’d of thought that they would be looking to him to save the image of the tour! Floyd does have it right though with his comments. It is not just the riders that have to clean up their act. There is corruption and cheating all the way to the top. Thefd is an article about the european sponsors leaving in droves. Look out for ‘Luc’s diner’ as a sponsor next year – should be able to pick up a cheap sponsorship deal. If you don’t laugh you’d cry.
morgan, from my understanding, rabbobank has dumped rasmussen because he LIED to them, which he only admitted to yesterday. yes, they knew before the tour that he’d missed out of competition tests, but what they didn’t know was that he was actually training in italy when he’d told them he was in mexico. so the long and short of it is, he’s been lying about his whereabouts, not merely forgetting to tell people of his whereabouts. VERY different.
You are right debi – he lied to them – but this is an internal problem for Rabobank and Rasmussen. I have no factual idea what milieu Rasmussen existed under at Rabobank – I do know that it was not friendly…I have no idea why he lied – BUT – the man rode the entire Tour – he must be at least a quart low of blood from all the Test they have done on him – to yank the guy who is wearing and defending his Yellow Jersey – in my eyes – seems a bit idiotic and unfair. Or does anyone who trains in Itally suspected as a doper?
Just for the record, Vino has failed 2 doping test for homologus transfusion, the ITT stage and for his second victory stages. So they kick him off with 2 cases. We can see that his second postive test is like a B sample.
For Landis case, he is certainly just a liar as Rasmussen, he is saying look “others screwed me”, I think “it’s screwed himself”.
Some stuff on doping.
———————————————————————–
Department of life sciences
Doping and sports
Collective expert assessment
No single drug can satisfy the numerous demands made on athletes to improve performance, stimulate staying power, sustain effort during training, eliminate stress. For this reason, s/he can be tempted to use drug roostertails, either as “scientific doping” and/or as “easy” doping, the latter being used by athletes with limited financial means.
These “roostertails” can be made up of different drugs whose combined effect increases their power, or of similar drugs with different names, which, when taken together, bring the dosage to toxic levels.
Among these combinations: amphetamines combined with corticoids, cardio-respiratory analeptics or cocaine, caffeine or ephedrin; EPO with aspirin and/or an anticoagulant, or natural or synthetic glucocorticoids; to recover strength, a combination of glucose-enriched serum added to insulin, IGF1, and as a supplement, androgens, GH, beta 2-agonists. The list of possible combinations is much longer, since roostertails are elaborated and adapted according to need.
B. Numerous determining factors
Due to rising financial stakes and the toughening of the competition for recognition and fame, athletes and their entourage tend to search for additional ways of improving performances, even if it means disobeying the rules established by the sports federations. Today, science has developed very effective drugs to enhance performance and hasten the recovery of athletes facing increasing constraints (schedule, competitions, events, etc.). Many athletes use drugs. The wealthier athletes use them under the supervision of competent professionals, while the others, in order to “stay in the race”, resort to self-medication on the basis of advice or information gathered in stadiums (“poor man” doping), unaware of the risk they run.
The analysis of determining factors shows that both sociological and personal factors must be taken into account.
. Playing with the rules: a risky game
As the stakes involved in competition sports grow higher, the rule is to get around the rules. Not to take risks with the rules, or not being able to ensure one’s protection if suspected of cheating can mean being left out of the race. Those who have nothing or not much to lose are the first to resort to cheating to attain their goal. Those on the higher rungs of the social ladder are in a much better position than others to play that dangerous game without getting caught. Persons who have access to information, to more or less legal ways of getting round the rules (waivers, corruption, or getting those in charge of enforcing the rules to close their eyes), and resort to all kinds of loopholes to get around the law, move ahead faster and remain in dominant positions longer than those who have no way of doing so. (A “wealthy” club or athlete, in terms of both money and information, has easier access to the services of physicians, or of laboratories specialized in doping and masking drugs than “poor” clubs or athletes).
To explain why certain athletes, federations, physicians, referees, resort to cheating, it is necessary to question the entire international sports system, nowadays entirely focused on the tough competition for medals and money. Not to take drugs when others are taking them would mean to lose. In this context, a special study on the side effects of the drugs most used by athletes ought to be be commissioned and results publicized among regularly competing athletes. Players’ and athletes’ unions or associations would be in the best position to carry out these information campaigns, since they can protect athletes who are already locked in the system “” forced to take drugs, or addicted. Of course, athletes are under very high pressure, if only because only the “best” are selected for competition; the pressure is exerted by actors who have an interest in seeing “their” athletes win “” federations, TV channels, consulting firms, directors of professional clubs, coaches, event organizers, sponsors, etc. There is a direct link between doping and the question of power relationships between these various actors. Internationally recognized associations and unions (such as in golf or tennis) would thus be the best source of information and protection for athletes.
1. Varying degrees of susceptibility
In addition to sociological factors, individual factors also play a significant role. Group pressure and financial interests can drive most, if not all, athletes to dope themselves.
http://www.cnrs.fr/cw/en/pres/compress/dopage/dopage2.html
The recent doping scandal of the last Tour de France cycling competition drew the attention of the media to practices which, until then, had remained covert. This media coverage has increased public awareness of this phenomenon. Indeed, due to their scope and sophistication, doping practices are a threat to more than just the world of sport. Though first considered to be no more than a cheating problem, the doping issue has reached such proportions that it now concerns society as a whole. As the stakes involved in sport grow higher and the phenomenon more widespread, the moral values attached to sport are increasingly called into question and the health of athletes increasingly at risk.
II. The aims
In order to enhance their performance, sportsmen use specific “methods” which optimize the qualities needed for their sport, on the basis of various physiological, biological, and psychological factors.
According to a widespread opinion, “upstream” doping, used for the above-mentioned aim, is “bad” and should be distinguished from “downstream”, or “good” doping, meant to help athletes recover their physiological and biological balance. In fact, both types of doping are complementary, since they artificially boost the body’s abilities, the second type of doping aiming to make up for the negative effects of the former.
Aerobic potential can be increased by increasing the blood’s oxygen transfer capacity. This is very important in sports requiring staying power, rely on the body’s energy metabolism, or require intense effort and varying sources of energy. After long-lasting or intense effort, glycogen reserves must be restored. A specially adapted nutritional strategy and drugs are then needed to modify the metabolic process. Methods include altitude training, self-transfusion, more recently, recombinant EPO, and of course glucocorticoids, etc.
When the aim is to increase strength and muscular power and improve technique, protein, natural or synthetic anabolic agents are frequently used, in combination with hyperprotein diets and muscle-building exercises. The balance between the increase in muscle mass and the loss of fat mass can be maintained thanks to growth hormones associated with aminoacids or other drugs with anabolic properties (but whose initial medical purpose is other), or with nutritional supplements.
To postpone fatigue and enable the body to reach its utmost limits, one can use antalgics, cardio-respiratory analeptics, central nervous system stimulants, several of which are strong anti-depressants and stimulants.
IIn sports where body features or size, tall or short, are important, such as body-building, the shape of the body can be modified through hormonal manipulations.
Various drugs are used to fight stress, facilitate sleep, remain in good physical shape, such as benzodiazepine derivatives and amphetamines, cannabinoids, alcohol, beta-blockers. For disciplines where it is important to stay alert, the sleeping-waking rhythm can be controlled thanks to amphetamines or more recent drugs.
Last, cultural and invidual factors also play a role in drug-taking behaviour. On the one hand, as concerns men, value is placed on the mesomorphic body type and muscular strength; physical stereotypes are spread by the media and the athletic subculture. On the other hand, one must take into account factors such as low self-esteem, or other psychological problems linked to for example to one’s body image and which existed prior to drug-taking.
Illicit drugs are of course taken on the sly. Several ways of hiding the fact exist: diluting urine, hemodilution, reducing kidney tubular secretions or the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio.
3. The problem of natural or semi-synthetic or synthetic substances
A certain number of substances normally used in specific medical circumstances are now being used in top level sports because of their positive effect on several physiological functions which play a role in sports.
Other drugs, either hardly commercialized or still awaiting market authorization, are known for their ability to increase oxygen transfer capacity, such as reticular haemoglobin, developed from a human molecule mainly used in hemorrhagic emergencies, in order to avoid having to determine the blood type for selective corpuscle transfusions. This is also the case of fluoro-carbons which are even more convenient since they keep well. They can also be used as a recovery activator after intensive effort. So far, no control procedure, in terms both of prevention and testing, exists for this type of drug. A solution to this problem should be found before it is commercialized, if possible.
The possibility of increasing muscular mass and acting on the anabolic or catabolic properties of the metabolism is extremely interesting for top-level sports. The use of androgens and anabolic agents has become increasingly widespread over the past 20 years, especially with the development of synthetic anabolic agents whose anabolic power is 30 to 50 times higher than that of natural androgens. The growth hormone (hGH) developed by genetic engineering has made it possible to avoid testing positive on synthetic anabolic agents. The recombinant growth hormone is available on the market*. It is used in all sports where performance is linked to muscular mass, as well as in aero-anaerobic sports, including team sports.
The production of IGF1 (Insulin-like growth factor), which completes the physiological action of the growth hormone, by genetic engineering complicates the issue. IGF1 used together with the growth hormone provides optimal results with smaller doses of both drugs and fewer side-effects. This may explain the standardization of a certain body shape and the disappearance of indirect signs of use of the single growth hormone. The availability of a second IGF2 opens new prospects in the field of energy metabolism.
To a lesser degree, interleukin 3 can be used singly or with another drug to enhance growth and stimulate corpuscle production. G-CSF is a growth enhancer which acts mainly on white corpuscles. Although it does not have any known effect on performance, it may help resist infections.
Analyzing peptide hormone levels in blood, especially the chorionic gonadotropin hormone (hCG), the growth hormone and EPO is thus of utmost importance. Synthetic peptide hormones presently in use have a chemical structure which is identical, or at least very similar to that of natural hormones, and it is impossible to distinguish their physical or chemical characteristics. Their dosage is at present determined by immunology techniques, but quantitative standards would be necessary to determine the exogenous presence of such substances.
The attitude of sporting authorities is thus far from clear, especially if we consider that a century ago, doping was a poor man’s resource to earn some profit from sports, and that today, doping has become extremely expensive. “Scientific” doping, with the accompanying “masking” procedures, is affordable only to the rich.
http://www.cnrs.fr/cw/en/pres/compress/dopage/dopage2.html
Morgan,
Actually, I find what happened to Rasmussen quite outrageous. I plan on following up on that later today or tomorrow — after I get a chance to fully translate the short Danish article, because my first read of the article suggests that Cassani’s claims are qualified with the equivalent of the phrase, “if what Cassani is saying is true.”
Everything going on with the Tour this year, as far as the doping scandals goes, is outrageous. Outrageous if those accused really did it, because it would take a lot of nerve to go into the race with a straight face saying you were committing to racing clean. And equally outrageous if these are just further examples of poor lab control and technique leading to dubious and/or incorrect results.
There’s something rotten in the state of the Tour de France. Is it the riders? Or is it the lab? Or is it the anti-doping authorities? Or is it a bit of all three? My guess, it’s a bit of all three. But the sum total is one big, friggin’ mess.
– Rant
Hey Jean Culeasec – appreciate the “doping theses” – but perhaps you did not understand me – I do not think that the LNDD is a reputable lab! They have been proved inapt in the court of arbitration – how ever you want to put it – if they don’t know their ass from their elbow as far as “testing procedure” goes they are useless in all ways to prove doping or not! So yes – that also means that even the 14 x’s Rasmussen was found clean – it is also suspect. Personally – I think Rasmussen was robbed, Rabobank was robbed, but they are in colussion with keeping the status quo.
Throwing out your thesis on drug use – in no way helps to clarify the present situation – try again.
Hey Rant – can’t wait to read your comment – Sorry that I’ve been writing so much – but one has to react or stay quiet – I’m pretty bad at the quiet thing…I also wish to extend this to the rest of the others who care enough to actually have an opinion and jump into the forum – with both feet. Better to crash and burn then to wake up to find you live in a world you had nothing to do to make!
A thought just crossed my mind. What if the fact that LNDD was shown on the record to have major problems with their testing procedures, equipment and reliability has led to athletes and teams thinking that they could get away with more doping this year?
This Rasmussen thing is funny for one other reason. IF he was in mexico where he said he was, being a danish citizen, he would have passport stamps to prove he was there. they stamp on the way in, and out in a lot of countries. and he would also potentially have a european return stamp on his passport. so, why not just show your passport stamps and shut everyone the hell up? easy non?
Rant — If you had the power to rebuild professional cycling from scratch, what would it look like? I hope you’ll write on this topic. Thanks.
Morgan,
LNDD was never prooved as inapt. It’s only Floyd’s and Lance’s dreams.
Keep the fact. And don’t tarnish the reputation of people.
i-heart-rien,
I was thinking the very same thing about the passport. It should have stamps to prove whether Rasmussen was in Mexico or Italy. I’m also certain that if there were stamps proving he was in Mexico at the time Rasmussen would have provided that evidence to his team. My understanding is from all the news I read, however, that Rasmussen admitted to his team that he was in Italy instead of Mexico as he had originally claimed. I’ve also been seeing reports that he also missed an out of competition test in April of 2006, which would mean he has missed three such tests in total.
Hey – i-heart – Rasmussen admitted that he lied about being in Mexico – he told them he was actually in Italy – the “reason” he gave for his behavior is understandable but not very smart – he said to the effect that he “resented” the invasion of privacy that the constant checks are putting into his private life….understandable but it is also a form of “acting out” – the reality is – he knew he broke the rule – the point is – his breaking this rule – after getting tested 14 times while wearing the yellow jersey through 14 stages – meeting every attack against it and coming out on top each time – it proves that he owns it – so no matter who will get their hands on it now – Even if it is Contador – he will not have “earned it”!
Hey – Illinoisfrank – Your point would be really salient but for one large detail. In fact the “arbitrators” are not considered a “law body”, meaning like our courts – The arbiters represent and judge only within the framework of the cycling community body – this is why they can “reveal” their findings when they feel like it, follow what ever rules the cycling community has made up to control the cyclist. – and Floyd can’t force them to do otherwise…I am not a lawyer – but this is my understanding of that issue…
One other thing to note – isn’t it interesting that the doctors who are in the service of the different teams – are now forming a union – could it be that doctors can actually detect when they are being railroaded? Since the Tour uses LNDD to do its testing – the UCI also when in France – I am not surprised that there have been riders found to be “doping”…because LNDD has no credibility IF you paid attention to Floyd’s trail proceeding….and since the UCI has not sanctioned or corrected the situation and made this correction a matter of public record – ALL THREE organizations have to be looked at as questionable…So what have we to now –
We have Sinkewitz found to be doping – the incident takes place in the French Alps,
the media goes into a frenzy and without waiting for the result of the B test he is instantly labeled a “doper”. We have Rasmussen who is beating the other riders black and blue but is not found guilty of doping but of being a rough boy and not following the rules, after 14 stages of wearing the jersey – he gets bumped. The thing with Vino and his whole team – Astana was one of the enliveners of this tour – the UCI got into its head that because some team members were supposedly associated with the Puerto Affair – by the way – all of them got “cleared” of this association – they must be “doping” ergo they are dopers – and because ASTANA did not want to be hassled while training – they wore Neutral colors – but to the Vampire squad this was as good as admitting that Astana were all dopers – and this was BEFORE THEY ACTUALLY GOT TO RIDING THE TOUR! – Now ask yourself – does the UCI give up on their pet theory that ASTANA were all dopers? I don’t think so. Now we come to Vino’s positive – ASTANA has the most dynamic team on the Tour – ASO manages to keep Vino out of last years tour – but they have no legal way to do this this year….So it is not so difficult to think that JUST PERHAPS we shouldn’t be so fast to throw out Vino and the Entire ASTANA team – when LNDD find Vino doping.
Please understand – I am NOT ADDRESSING THE QUESTION OF – “Did Vino dope or not” – But to end this diatribe – the best quote I heard was from Vino: “If I had used the blood from my father, the only thing the lab would find is a lot of Vodka.”
Jean:
Here are a few facts proven in the Landis arbitration about LNDD regarding just one machine in the lab: (1) the “isoprime2” machine was operated with lifting rings on it — the lifting rings are only supposed to be there during installation and maintenance on the magnet. They are not supposed to be there during operation. When present, the effect is not unlike putting a speaker near a color-TV screen, where the picture gets distorted, (2) LNDD does not have a copy of the Isoprime manual, the machine was delivered with a manual for an earlier, similar machine, the Isochrome instead, (3) the B samples tested on “isoprime2” were run outside the required pressure ranges for the machine.
There is much more, including the fact that LNDD consistently leaks information in clear violation WADA procedures. There can simply be no question: LNDD has been proven incompetent.
Rant, I think the following is a good link for Arbitrator Campbell’s comments on the Tyler Hamilton blood doping case. He basically said (in 2004) that the test wasn’t ready for use. But that was then…..
http://www.usantidoping.org/files/active/arbitration_rulings/AAA_CAS Decision – Hamilton.pdf
Morgan Hunter: My point was that LNDD was shown in public (that is what I meant by on the record) to have major problems. Whether or not the arbs are a law body or their findings have the weight of law does not matter to hypothesis. It was publicly seen that LNDD has problems. Perhaps this knowledge led some riders to think they could get away with more this year. Whether or not this was a good idea is also not my point.
KEN – have read all the same things. dude’s just dirty and thought he would get away with it. its such a bummer. my first year living in paris, and i don’t even wanna go see the finish…. Oh well, i heard curling can be rousing good fun to watch. i guess i’ll try that! 😉
Jean C, what is your problem? I skipped over a lot of your dissertation once I realized it was talking about any doping topic other than the real issue in any doping case: whether or not the individual rider was legitimately charged and proven to have doped. As pointed out with just a few of the applicable issues in a comment three up from this one, the lab in the Landis case has been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, to be technically sloppy and ethically slack (to put it very mildly). Do you have friends at Chatenay-Malabry? Their reputations deserve to be tarnished. At the very least, someone there is getting paid well for the leaks that cause scandals, and neither the lab nor WADA appears to be doing the slightest to find out who or put a stop to it, much less improve the lab’s lackadaisical procedures–if that’s not true, tell me where to see the evidence. This is ridiculous.
Rant, I think you have it wrong. I think ejecting an entire TEAM when ANY ONE test postive is the ONLY WAY to clean up the sport. (when I say test postive, I mean a decisive A and B sample ‘conviction’). Cycling is a TEAM SPORT..one goes down, the team goes down. It would appear that there are still riders out there who are not afraid of the testing process (implying that hey have cheated and not been caught). WHY would VINO risk ALL to blood dope? (assuming at this point that he DID INDEED do it)..the only answer that I can come up with is he didn’t think he’d get caught…implying that he has done it before and not got caught. Which further implies that if HE has done it and not got caught, then OTHERS have/are doing the same! I think peer pressure amongst the teams is the only way! A rider comes positive, he gets a LIFETIME ban, the team gets a 1-year ban! There might not be many teams for a while, but boy oh boy would they start taking an interest in what each other is doing!
What a false accusation here, people are constantly using the same errors.
Morgan LNDD no credibility ? because the Floyd bunch are thinking so, but what about other people from other lab?
Do you remember that samples of the others stage were tested, and found positive but the false sample were correctly found none positive?
You have just see the smoke which were made by Floyd’s lawyer. How is it reasonnable to pay a private jet to Herr Doctor? Isn’t it a payement? Did you have speak with his colleagues ? How have they found his prestations?
What about the extraordinary recovery from Floyd? and his suerhuman performances?
They were similar as Flo-Jo, or for a man it’s like running the 100m in 9s !!!! Yes 9s.
Imagine in 1990, the 100m in 10s and 3-4 years later almost all runners in 9s !!!!! It’s what is becoming cycling. I just would said they were a little slowier in 2006, just in 9.3 sec.
For Rasmussen, UCI rules are, for ONE missed OOC in the last 45 days before a GT, the rider can not be include in the team for this GT!
So he would have been exclude, and his team removed too because they have tried to cheat.
ASTANA … Vino has used blood of someone which is compatible with his own blood. With Operation Puerto who have learnt that it was possible to loan people compatible with his own blood. Probably Astan could not find someone to travel with Vino’s blood in France, they are scraried by french police, it’s jail for people who have hand in a a doping ring. So he took B plan.
Have you seen and heard his DS? He was certainly knowing all, but the money is coming from Kazhahstan with Vino. He could not stop the old players.
Matt,
Maybe that would work, banning a team for a year after a confirmed test (not just an A sample, on which we both agree). Peer pressure from within his team certainly didn’t stop Moreni, who’s admitted he used testosterone. Boyer’s strongly anti-doping stance didn’t stop him, nor did Wiggins’ and others outspoken views. Can’t imagine why he would, knowing he’d be tested, but apparently he did.
If Vino is guilty, and certainly the stories we’re hearing seem to suggest that — even though neither B sample result has come out, then he deserves to have the book thrown at him.
For the riders who get tossed out because a teammate screwed up, that’s where I have mixed feelings. Those riders didn’t do anything wrong, and yet, they’re getting punished, too. If throwing entire teams out could really bring about change, maybe that’s the price that has to be paid. I’m not sure it will work, however.
It’s human nature, or so it seems, to cheat. There’s always going to be a few who will do it. I’m not sure that peer pressure is going to be what it takes to bring about change. I think the whole system needs to be scrapped and a new one replace it, one that is more rational and less reactionary than the one we currently have.
Right now, what we’re hearing suggests that Vino is guilty. Until all the facts are in, we need to be careful, however. Appearances can be deceiving. We haven’t seen any data or test results (unlike the Landis case, who’s to say if Vino would put it all out there, so we may never see), but until the B samples come back and until the data is there for all to see, we need to be cautious about calling the man guilty. Maybe he is, maybe he isn’t. At some point, it will be determined, either by test results or an arbitration panel. It’s going to be a long time, I suspect, until the final chapter in Vino’s story gets written.
Jean C: it is hard to take the testimony of ADA lab personnel seriously when they are required to agree not to testify in defense of an accused athlete or to criticize other ADA labs. It is suspicious to have such things written into the rules, just as it looks suspicious for riders to avoid signing anti-doping agreements. It does not stand up to a reasonable standard of ethical behavior. Shouldn’t doctors and lawyers criticize malpractice, or stop it when they witness it? If all lab directors find C-M’s practices up to their standards, why don’t they adopt them? If all the labs had the same high-quality procedures and were held to them, Floyd Landis wouldn’t have a leg to stand on in his case. The fact that qualified anti-doping personnel are prevented from testifying with full and open honesty does not prevent labs from performing properly, but it does nothing to encourage them to do so, and gives a bad appearance to all of them. So does the lack of penalties for lab misconduct, including leaks.
Regarding whole teams being tossed for one rider’s behavior, while we can discuss whether or not the accusation is fair (and in Rasmussen’s case, he did brazenly break rules and lie to his management), it might come to be effective. But there will always be those exceptions. There will have to be some draconian consequences for those who dope, because there will always be somebody who feels the need to cheat.
IllinoisFrank – Thanks for clarifying your statements. I understand. I do not think that the riders would think in this way – some riders are good tacticians – these may think in this way – but since they race all over – and since there seems to exist no code of performance for what ever lab – this way of thinking is simplistic. I am not saying you are implying that the riders are simplistic or that you are – it seems simplistic to me – but perhaps you may be right.
What a sorry episode of the Tour today was…now – they are putting Contador under the spotlight – and questioning his “non-doper” status…or it may be that Contador has been “seen training in Italy” – or perhaps he has a panchent for black riding outfits…
Jean Culeasec – hi! – And I see that you take all these racing and doping matters very seriously. So do I. You question my understanding of the LNDD situation. Okay, you have every right to.
I do not see the scientists and doctors who represented the Landis case for Landis as being “The Landis crowed” – Just as when Moreau the French racer is called to race, he is paid for his services – why is that different then paying a fee for a world renowned (famous) scientist to fly over to America and testify? Top riders get their tickets paid for too; it is part of the arrangement.
If you look at the science of the testimony – THIS IS WHERE LNDD fails. It is mostly beyond me – but I do understand enough to know that if you have not set the machine up to the correct place – whatever result you get has to be false.
I am not attacking the French people – I happen to find them very charming. I am upset with a “SCIENTIFIC LABORATORY” that is conducted unscientifically. The truth is – EVERY such testing lab MUST BE PERFECT – not merely close – but perfect, because what they say can and does ruin lives.
As to Floyd’s “extraordinary recovery” – “super human performance” – You must see the ride as it happened. Floyd had “bonked” the day before – he lost so much time that the entire peloton thought he was out of the picture. So when you see it in this way – Floyd attacks – no one takes him seriously. Floyd proceeds to time trial for the rest of the race – yes – it was a fantastic ride – but not superhuman. It is not logical to think that just because he had a bad day that he will continue to have a bad day…It is not a fault of Floyd that nobody tries to chase him down! As to riding away from the attack group – come on – just compare their TT times with Floyd’s. Floyd has been riding seriously for many years. He has been riding like this not just on Stage 17 but also in other races – but this time he had people around him. To do such a time trial – is not easy – but it is doable…If it is your choice to believe that such a performance is only doable while being doped then you must also think that EVERY super performance of Hinault was done while he was doping – I do not think Hinault doped – or at least I choose to think he didn’t.
I am not saying that Vino is innocent — what I am saying is that it is against the rules for LNDD to “leak information” — it is against the RULES. Yet this lab “leaks” info consistently about its work. In this case I admit to being a fan of Vino — and I even like his team ASTANA. Vino may have doped — BUT it does not give the LNDD the right to leak it to the press. THIS IS WHY I AM ANGRY WITH LNDD.
No I personally have never met any of the scientists who testified for Floyd. I live in Austria — that happened in California — how would I meet these people? To judge the scientist as being good or bad — I think the only way is to see their work. Can they do as well as read the data they work with — do they understand their work? Do they understand their tools? Certainly not by what one scientist feels about the popularity or ability of another scientist who has a big reputation.
I cannot address runners and how they function – I also cannot discuss with you their statistics – not because I don’t want to but because I have too little personal knowledge about running.
I am sorry that you feel that my criticizing LNDD is in some way wrong. I may be wrong – but I do not think that I am. You think Floyd is guilty – how does this thinking of yours solve the very real problem of LNDD doing bad work?
Much appreciation for your thoughts, thank you.
What about the possibility that UCI had the “fix” in against Rasmussen? Rabobank being one of the “good guys” wasn’t going to get the phonak/astana treatment. So maybe the UCI tells ASO that they are going to test the Chicken positive for something (they’ll decide what later). So ASO lets Rabobank know. Rabobank has no option but to cut him loose.
I know this sounds like barking at the moon. But I am perplexed about the yellow jersey being dropped because he might have gone to Italy instead of Mexico and lied about it (it sounds even more ridiculous now). So.
I am equally perplexed at the TDF relentlessly beating itself up. Tossing teams and individuals on unconfirmed tests is just bazaar.
The only theory I have is that this situation is intentionally exacerbated by the UCI and WADA to punish ASO for their intransigence over the Pro Tour. Maybe I’ve reached too far?
I can’t see too many obvious holes in this.
Even if the riders are in fact doping, the actions of the governing bodies seem intent to destroy the public perception of the TDF. ASO definitely has self destructive tendencies, but do they have any political choice given the stance of WADA (and their uncanny ability to have results leaked to the media through the LNDD) and other governing bodies?
Seem crazy?
Maybe.
Morgan,
LNDD could not leaks the results, or if they can it’s only “we have a positive test for T”, they never have the name of the sample tested but only if it’s a B samples with witness.
Leaks come very probably from UCI which have the name and can only match the samples. During Verbruggen era many positive tests have been pushed undr the rug because UCI had bad reputation and CIO would not see road cyclism a dirty sport in Olympic Games (I think there is dirtier sports than ours). Verbruugen is member from IOC now, cyclism is more dirtier and it’s not good for him but he has still many friends in UCI, and the game is still on. Some people inside UCI are leaking again the results to avoid their cleaning!
What is a shame is that every rider know that but prefer to tarnish LNDD. If it was real that LNDD could leak the results there is a while that WADA or french governement would have acted. But fans still prefer believe in their heros who can never lie.
Floyd Landis need 20% more power than Hinault era! Without EPO or blood doping , he never could sustain this power on a long time. He is too heavy. It’s why before EPO era you could not find a great climber who was heavy (Bahamontes, Van Impe, Gaul, Coppi,…). People like Hinault were great climber but Heras, Van Impe,… were greater.
So Landis is a liar when he said “I never doped”. His performance are impossible without blood doping. Look at this year, a lot of rider were cleaner than before, and we again found in first ranks the smaller riders.
To speak of due process when every riders can detect riders who are using EPO or blood doping by their performance or how they are breathing… it’s very difficult to be treated as lazy, as fool or even threated by dopers as it was the case for Simoni and Bassons by Armstrong. Some of them have no limits, you can have heard some of their acts recently.
Of course there is no reason to not give them a due process, there is many people as bulgarian nurses who have had a worst treatement. To have lost so many money and energy for that it’s stupidity. Oh yes you would say “if the testing was better …”, but even if it was better, the same people would try to avoid the reality, and it would be a lost of money. You have to know that for the health of people in USA, the quality of work was worst (read on DPF). It’s probably the same in Europe!
Look at Rasmussen who lied, I just see Cassani saying he told with him in Dolomites (maybe not far of you).
Michael,
ASO and TDF are “outside of ProTour”, just an agreement with them like no suspected riders can be include by teams on TDF. Rasmussen as he was warning was suspect, and should never be on TDF. Rabobank and UCI failed to respect their engagement, it’s why Prudhomme was anger, UCI didn’t say that before the start!
Never trust a rider or a sportmen who have something to win, they are generaly ready to win with all means.
Jean Culeasec,
While you have some good points about UCI possibly being the source of the leaks, I’m not 100% convinced on this. Regardless, who ever is doing the leaking needs to be exposed and fired.
In regardless to the issue of needing 20% more power, training has greatly improved since the days of Himault as has the equipment. Himault did not have the benefit of power meters, heart monitors, etc. He also didn’t have the benefit of modern sports medicine that has turned rehydration and diet into a near science. Even without illegal doping, one should expect modern top athletes of all sports to be more powerful and better trained then their predecessors of 20 or 30 years ago. I’d even say that being 20% more powerful isn’t surprising at all.
Ken,
Maybe are you not aware that the 20% of improvement was done between 1990 and 1994 when EPO began to be commonly used.
If you are looking the power of top riders, their average is following the use of EPO. When hematocrit test appereared, their power decreases. When EPO appeared decreaseing too…
Look at here the graph are enough to see that:
http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=2433
The Cofidis squad did not get booted – their sponsors demanded they withdraw.
And frankly, I don’t give a stuff about the riders personal rights in relation to action being taken before the b-test is through. They are not more important than the sport.
As far as I’m concerned, the ‘breached due process’ argument is a very close relation to the ‘DNA testing breaches my human rights’ Equally full of sh*t.
Landis trotted out that argument two nights ago in defence of Vino and I don’t think he did his own position any good at all by doing so.
I am troubled that people are more concerned about catching cheaters than establishing and maintaining a fair process.
What if Rasmussan actually was in Mexico? I assume he can produce cell phone bills, credit card receipts, or at least a passport. And if he can’t – then what? What was the process that got him fired? He hasn’t lost his license.
Frankly, I’ve always believed him to be a doper (ever since his mt biking days), but him getting kicked out of the tour under these circumstances is not justice.
If due process isn’t followed, then I can have no more faith in the system than the riders. And without faith in the system the sport is dead. It’s not the riders that are cheating who are killing the sport. They are providing the wounds, but it is the incompetent doctors who are utilizing improper methods to find the cure who are killing the sport.
This notion that the riders have a reason to cheat, therefore the riders must be cheating comes very close to McCarthyism.
Cycling will not benefit by subverting the civil rights of the riders or the use of demagoguery by those in positions of power.
The means do not justify the ends.
Huw,
Point taken about Cofidis’ withdrawal.
By WADA’s and the UCI’s own rules regarding doping, no action can be taken against a rider until B sample analysis is complete. Unless he admits to doping before then, in which case they can impose sanctions at after his admission. You may not give a rip about rider’s rights, but those are the rules. We should expect that they will be followed, regardless of our opinions about any particular rider or situation.
– Rant
Michael
Rasmussen choised to do a professional sport. he is linked to his sponsor. If he is going to tarnish him, it’s justify to withdram him.
Ok, it’s the media and public fault… but when he had received famous and glorious by them, had he complained ? Or it’s only a play where you should only win?
His performances, similar as Pantani, better than Virenque, are higly suspect. If you add the suspicion cloud and the clues againt him, the outcome is known.
Who blame? Did he not know the problem in cycling? He acted like a fool.
Jean,
LNDD’s image is being tarnished, because of their own mistakes. One of the lab technicians admitted in the Landis trial that she knew whose sample she was testing when she tested it. LNDD has also had problems with other sports. The IOC requested that WADA suspends LNDD’s accredidation, and the French Open elected to have their samples tested in Montreal instead of LNDD.