In the discussion going on the last couple of days, one of the things that stood out was a comment by Larry, a lawyer, to the post Tick, Toc, Tick, Toc. We all want justice to be both fast and fair.
[W]hen it comes to legal process, the sad truth is that faster processes are inherently less fair. The things we talk about to make drug testing a more fair process – discovery, juries, appeals – are all time consuming. They’re also expensive.
Unfortunately, when looking at fast results versus just results, the two are almost mutually exclusive. Want fast results? Then we’ll need to take a few shortcuts. Want justice to be fair, it could take a while before the process is done.
Which would you choose, if you had to have one or the other, but not both? Me, I’d choose fair over fast. This is pretty much the dichotomy that’s really under discussion when people talk about how long it’s taking for the arbitrators to make their decision since the Floyd Landis hearings finished just over three months ago.
Landis’ fate rests in the hands of three men, who are deliberating on whatever schedule they are following. When they will make their decision, no one appears to know. By the amount of time it’s taking, I’m hoping that they are carefully weighing the evidence. But again, no one really knows what’s going on behind closed doors. Floyd Landis lives in a strange space right now (very well chronicled by Sara Corbett in her article, The Outcast), not knowing when a decision will come or what it will be. His entire future depends on what these three men decide.
If they decide in his favor, he can begin to think about returning to racing. Sure, someone on the other side may appeal to the CAS. And yes, with that appeal, it’s a whole new case. Literally. The case that will be heard on appeal starts at square one. It is not an appeal on the decision made by the arbitrators, limited to the facts presented in the original case, the way the hearings were conducted, or any of what’s gone on before. It’s entirely new.
And that means it will be another expensive go `round. But, if the panel clears Landis, he would be free to race during the appeal period. And there’s probably one or two or three teams out there who might be interested in taking him, even with the uncertainty of the appeals process. If I were in Floyd’s shoes, the uncertainty would be driving me nuts.
Truth be told, the whole system is nuts. Floyd Landis is effectively barred from pursuing his career while he awaits a decision. Scooter Libby, on the other hand, wasn’t barred from working while on trial. Whether he actually worked or not is another matter. But if he wanted to, he could have worked in his chosen profession — just not at the White House. Once he became too big a political football, he was “encouraged” to leave his job there. What kind of system punishes people before they’re found guilty?
I’ve had some email from someone who asks, why haven’t the mainstream media been shining a light on what’s taking the arbitrators so long. Why haven’t bloggers spoken up more forcefully about what appears to be foot-dragging by the panel? Why, indeed? Well, I can’t answer for all of the mainstream media, I can answer only for myself. I think getting people discussing the topic is one way of raising awareness, and perhaps putting some indirect pressure on the arbitrators to do something. But I’m not sure that the pressure should be too forceful.
I think Jellotrip, who’s had experience in this sort of thing, pretty well sums it up by saying that if the arbitrators tell you they’re going to take longer, it’s not in your interest to argue with them.
[Richard] McLaren was the arbitrator in my anti-doping arbitration schemozzle, and requested from us an unlimited time to make his decision instead of the deadline that the rules gave him. We allowed it to him of course, because what the hell else are you going to say to the guy deciding on your life?
It turns out that McLaren was deliberating on Jellotrip’s case while he was also sitting on the Landis panel in Malibu. So, I think it’s safe to assume that whatever the reasons for the delay, one of them is that the arbitrators aren’t working exclusively on the Landis deliberations. At least part of the delay can be accounted for by those other obligations. As a side note, in Jellotrip’s case it took McLaren 45 days to make his decision, which seems lightning-fast compared to how fast the Landis case is taking.
My uncle once told me a story from his youth. He and another boy were interested in the same girl, and neither one of the boys could stand the idea that she liked both of them. One day, one of the boys (my uncle), told the girl that she had to make a choice right then and there. He was hoping she’d choose him. Turns out, she chose the other boy.
Sometimes, forcing a decision isn’t in one’s best interest. Although, I think things worked out for the best because some time later my uncle met my aunt (my mother’s sister), and they eventually married. My uncle was like a second father to me, but he might not have been a part of my life had that girl made a different choice way back when. Every day since he passed away three years ago, I miss him.
Anyway, back to the emailer’s question: Why not raise a ruckus, shine a light on the arbitrators and see if turning up the heat might speed up the process. Well, I would certainly like to see the process come to a quicker end than not. But at the same time, I wonder if demanding a faster answer would be a good idea. Larry makes a good point when he says:
Yes, we’re all impatient for a decision. But if waiting is required to get to the RIGHT decision … then presumably we’d all be willing to wait. To be sure, if the panel (natually inclined as are most panels to side with the prosecution) is wavering, if the pro-Landis arguments are slowly working their way through their brains, creating growing doubts … would you really want to force their hands at this point, announce “TIME’S UP!” and force them to decide?
No, I don’t think it would be a good idea to call time at that point. And I don’t think we’re likely to find out much about the inner workings of the deliberations before the decision is announced. The panel is both judge and jury, or perhaps better likened to a panel of judges, like the Supreme Court. While a jury is deliberating, or a panel of judges is deciding a case, we aren’t able to peer into the proceedings and demand to see what they’re doing.
Perhaps, when all is said and done, one or more of the panel might speak publicly about what went on. If any of the panel speaks, it would probably be Chris Campbell. I don’t imagine either McLaren or Patrice Brunet giving many interviews on how they decided the case. Still, once it’s over, I’d like to see some stories address why it took so long, with whatever comments can be gotten from the arbitrators, themselves. Before the decision is announced, however, I’m not so sure it’s a good idea to light too big a fire under the panel’s feet.
I don’t want to see a case where the panel feels rushed and they finally say, “You know what? We’re tired of all this pressure. We don’t care what the evidence says. He’s guilty.” This is not the kind of result that would be fair or just. So, while we all grow more curious about why it’s taking so long, we’re all stuck waiting until such time as the arbitrators are ready to announce their decision.
The timing of that announcement will be interesting to see. Will it be done to ensure maximum impact, or minimal exposure? That could say a lot about how the arbitrators want us to view the case. Or will this panel even think about, or care about, such things? We’ll just have to wait and see.
It can also be said Rant, and this should also be considered, that it is not the fault of Landis and Jello that they are victims of the present system. Unless we are willing to give up on the concept of swift and fair justice, or simply put – “innocent until proven guilty”.
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When the idea of swift justice is put forth – I do not believe that one is implying that “corners be cut” to get at a fair decision. The philosophy behind “swift justice” is to give the “defendant” a fair trial. And is that not what most of us are really upset about in this present situation?
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We the public and naturally, ALL the “defendants”, are decrying that there is something not right with how the present system is functioning. We /I respond to the reality of actual time passed, how what information that leaks out, gives the impression that the system is “unfairly” loaded against the defendants.
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Shinning a Rant-Light on this fiasco is NOT intended to force the Arbs to make hasty decisions – rather it is to highlight that the system is UNACCEPTABLE and UNFAIR, and in the American system of justice this is considered wrong.
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One can only hope that the Arbs are deliberating with speed and to the depth that your words imply Rant. But then, the second big problem raises to the surface. As presented, even the Arbs “neutrality” has been called into question. We the public, EXPECTS that when an “arbitration” hearing occurs – the “judges” presiding at such a hearing are “fair and impartial” – this expectation at this moment in time, cannot be held as true.
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Since this whole dang litigation process has been “spun” to get certain results by the parties that have vested interests – the concept of law has been bypassed, and turned into nothing more then who has the better media spinners. I bellieve that THIS point is what leaves us, the cycling public so crazy and confused about the whole situation. Maybe consciously, or unconsciously, we all realize that the system is not fair – and the “pressure” we are trying to exert is to correct this!
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I for one would not be willing to sacrifice “equal justice” for Floyd or Jello or anyone who has been “busted” by the present regime that has power in the cycling world. By compromising the chances of the accused to get a “fair” hearing. What I do not intend to sit still for is that the system is unfairly loaded in the favor of the accusers.
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It is THIS that I/we would like to keep the spotlight on – and this pressure will not stop, at least not from me – till the situation is corrected. It is “totally unacceptable” that such behavior exists, can exist or can be made to come about to exist. .
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I do not believe that it is a good idea to wait patiently, while a suspect system grinds the defendants to dust – no matter what the decision itself turns out to be. This kind of patience is too passive to ensure that the involved parties have it rammed through their consciousness that we are “seeing” them more clearly then whatever spin the parties have been putting out for our consumption.
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I submit that “patience” is interpreted by the present parties as a sign that they may continue in the way they have become used to. NO WAY JOSE!!! – They better get the message and realize that we will not accept such behavior, that it is illegal, and we see it as illegal. That if they continue, they will have to pay the penalties for their behavior. NOTHING LESS CAN BE ACCEPTABLE.
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We are discussing REAL people, whos’ lives are destroyed by the present system. This cannot be allowed to continue!!! – As it is – it is not possible to come to a fair and transparent solution because the deck has been so badly stacked in favor of the accusers.
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ANY FURTHER questions concerning the situation has to stop right there. To continue further is nothing less than “accepting” the flawed process as workable. It is not. We had better think deeply on this – it is not fair and it is not justice. What it is is a league of tyranny – that has been allowed to fester because, we have not been allowed to see the whole situation before.
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For this alone – we can thank Mr Landis, in allowing us to be able to “see behind” the closed doors that have ALLOWED this festering; THIS MOCKERY OF JUSTICE TO CONTINUALLY EXIST.
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For in reality Rant – it is because of getting it our from behind closed doors that tvb, you and the Rant Line, and all the other such groups have sprung up. Otherwise – the powers that be – would continue on their merry way – enjoying the position they hold with no regards for individual rights, fair play, or an honest and unquestionable system based in justice – THAT, Rant cannot be allowed to continue!
Off topic….
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From cyclingnews:
“”Despite claiming that he was “the most optimistic I have been in years” about the state of the sport, he still holds some reservations about seeing youngsters starting their careers in professional cycling. LeMond’s contemporary Davis Phinney has a son, Taylor, who just won a gold medal in the Junior World Championships, and LeMond has mixed feelings about his success. “He could be one of our most talented riders coming up,” LeMond said.
“At first I thought, ‘Oh, I’m so happy for him, and then I thought, ‘Oh, I’m so sad for him.’ Because I don’t know if I was the parent, and my son would have won the worlds that I would allow him to pursue it on the professional level,”
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He would allow it?? If ever there was a glimpse into the tortured mind of Lemond, this must be it. As a parent I can’t imagine not ‘allowing” a child to not pursue a talent (unless maybe it was pole dancing on the Sapranos) which could put them within the upper levels of world competition. If he has this little faith in humanity (his!) then he has no business opening his pie hole. Greg, shut the f*** up already!
Sorry Jbsmp – he does have a right to “opening his pie hole”…We all do – you and I don’t have to like him or his particular take on life – I don’t believe if LeMond read anything we have been generating here, he would think much of us either…But we also have a right to open our pie hole.
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Neat, huh?
Morgan, where did I say he did not have “the right” to doing anything? Read my post: I said “he has no business opening his pie hole”. So what is the difference? Well in the old USA you can say just about anything and with the press obliging it will get ink if you have fame. But there are times that people are better served keeping their opinions to themselves, especially in a public place.
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Thus, for example, Floyd would have been better off if he had just shut his pie hole via his fingers in the Daily Peleton site when he took on Lemond man e mano. He accomplished nothing except gave ammunition to the other camp.
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In this quote Lemond sounds like an egotistical boob in that HE had the intestinal fortitude to stand up to drug cheaters but his own son (via Taylor Phinney) would not have that ability, and this he would not “allow” him to participate. Like I said, egotistical boob, in my humble opinion.
So Jbsmp – are you mad at him for showing us that he is an idiot?…Or because he shows that he “projects” his own fears on a “proxy son” (TP) – as you point out – the man is one of those people who see their own shortcomings in every body else – except themselves…?
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I did read your post bro – my response was not intended as criticism of you – rather to acknowledge that you are very angry at Lemond. I have no problem with this, or criticizem for your post.
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The last line of my post – meant only that it is fascinating how people expose themselves through their words, whether they want to or not, ergo the old saw – “give’m enough rope to hang themselves”…
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But what is your take on Rants “Choices, choices?” – pretty good stuff, no?
Rant, I take exactly one day off the internet (to fly to the E. Coast USofA), and by the time I return, you’ve posted TWO blogs? And I’m cited in one of them?
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Seriously, this is way cool.
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OK, on to the content of the first blog I missed. Rant, I agree with everything except your statement that in a process like the Landis arbitration, you’d be willing to sacrifice speed for fairness. Me, I’d sacrifice fairness for speed. This is sport, and the essence of sport is for the sporting result to be decided on the field (or the track or the road). In cycling, the ideal would be for the cyclist to pee right into a machine that would analyze and spit out the results like an old-fashioned fortune telling machine. The rider wins the race at 4:00 p.m., pees into the machine at 4:02 p.m. and accepts his trophy at 4:04 p.m. As a cycling fan, the 4 minute delay about represents the amount of patience I have for the winner to be announced.
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Yes, I know, we don’t have a testing machine that can do instant on-the-spot drug testing analyses, or anything remotely resembling such a machine. From all I’ve read, the drug testing process is enormously complicated; sometimes it seems more an art to me than a science. So I know I’m not going to know who won a grand Tour until some time after the race is run.
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But how long do I have to wait? Do I know for certain at this moment that Alberto Contador won the 2007 Tour de France? I guess not. I figure at this point, the various authorities have announced all of the positive drug tests coming out of the Tour, though I can’t know this for certain — for once, someone might be protecting the confidentiality of the athlete. But even if we know the identity of every rider who failed a drug test in the 2007 Tour, something else could pop up, and presto! Another Tour winner in doubt. For Contador, the most obvious threat is some negative revelation emerging from Operation Puerto.
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As a fan, the current situation is pretty bad. I don’t even watch the last day of the Tour any more. It’s too depressing.
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I’m on family vacation and must now turn the computer over to the wife and daughter, but more later.