Word On The Street Is …

by Rant on November 11, 2006 · 7 comments

in Doping in Sports, Floyd Landis, Tour de France

If you’ve read what AFT has posted here and on Trust But Verify about what the word on the street is among American pro cyclists, you already know that he tells us that many (or all) of his sources believe that Floyd Landis got caught cheating because of blood doping gone bad.

Should we believe him? Hard to say. Take a look at what he’s offered in a comment on my previous post, “Who Are You?”. What he offers of his identity certainly gives him some amount of credibility. Just how much may be a subject of debate.

So let’s give AFT/Water Carrier the benefit of the doubt and assume that the story he tells is the conventional wisdom of the American pro cycling scene.

This conventional wisdom certainly casts an interesting light on the American pro cyclists. And it’s not an entirely flattering one, either. The fact that a number of pros (how many remains unclear) would suspect such things about Floyd Landis indicates to me that there are some pros out there who have done exactly what AFT/Water Carrier says. Such suspicions must come from somewhere, after all. Personal experiences of some of AFT/Water Carrier’s source, perhaps?

I haven’t gotten the sense that any of AFT/Water Carrier’s sources have given him any hard evidence that Landis, himself, has done such things, other than the general suspicion of the community. But from what he’s passed on to us, we now know something about the extent to which some pro cyclists will try to beat the system.

What AFT/Water Carrier says about the blood doping gone awry is intriguing, although I don’t know how well the science stacks up on whether it could be true. Garbage In/Garbage Out is one way of looking at it. If the “cleaning” was done poorly, as his sources allege, then eventually the synthetic testosterone in a blood bag used for doping would clear out of a person’s system. Would there be enough to show up in CIR/IRMS? Don’t know. In principle it sounds like it could. In practice?

What his sources can’t account for is the extremely low E that caused Landis’ T/E ratio to be out of whack. And that’s what led to the CIR/IRMS test in the first place. Having gotten to the point of CIR/IRMS testing, if what these sources say is true, perhaps it might account for the CIR/IRMS results. But I question whether it would really be enough to produce the results allegedly found by LNDD.

As open-minded investigators of the Landis affair know all too well, the science behind the anti-doping tests isn’t perfect. So it’s not too surprising to think that the science behind the cheating would be imperfect, as some have suggested in comments at TBV. Actually, it’s highly believable that the science behind the cheating is less than perfect, because it depends on just who happens to be advising the cheaters.

It’s hard to say whether any of the “science” involved in doping is credible. But one thing is certain: No matter how stringent an the enforcement of anti-doping rules may be, there will always be people who will try to find creative ways to side-step the enforcement regime. In other words: No matter how good the anti-doping system may be, we’re always going to have people who try to beat the system.

Was Floyd Landis one of those people who tried to beat the system? Personally, I don’t think so, even if the conventional wisdom amongst pro cyclists says otherwise.

There is one thing to remember about conventional wisdom, however. Back in the late 60s and early 70s, the conventional wisdom was that the Beatles’ song “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds” was a song about LSD. Years later, it turned out that the song was inspired by a drawing by a very young Julian Lennon called (what else?) “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds.” Sometimes the conventional wisdom, even if it sounds convincing, is wrong.

Thomas A. Fine November 11, 2006 at 7:23 pm

The science on this one is crap.

Look, you’re doping with at most 1/10th of your total blood volume. So your diluting any testosterone found to 1/10th, and by the same measure, you’re diluting any test results to 1/10th.

Second, blood that will be stored is separated – plasma is removed, and red blood cells are stored on ice. If you don’t remove the plasma, the cells burst, and when you reintroduce them you don’t get any doping benefit (although it might make you feel sick). And, the testosterone in blood is carried in the plasma, the part that’s thrown away.

Third, testosterone stays in your blood a really short time. In ten to thirty minutes half of an injection would already be gone from your bloodstream, if it was directly injected. If it was administered non-directly (oral, patch, or an injection into tissue) then at any given time, the blood itself will only show a small fraction of the T being introduced. The tests rely on the fact that the metabolites (by-products) of T accumulate in the urine over a period of hours.

An athlete would have to be daft to draw blood immediately after a dose of T.

But let’s suppose an athlete was REALLY stupid. They inject themselves with testosterone, and within 10 minutes, they donate a unit of blood (which takes about ten minutes anyway). If by some amazing miracle of non-science (aka nonsense), half of the testosterone and/or T metabolites that were in the blood remained there after the plasma as removed, and then it was reintroduced in the system, you’re down to 1/20th of the original concentration when you redope with that allegedly tainted blood. So if your original T/E had been 60 , then this bag of blood could push your T/E all the way up to… 3. If your IRMS test taken some hours after that blood was drawn would have peaked at a -10 per mil variation in isotope levels, then after doping with that blood, you could expect to perhaps see a -0.5 variation in isotope levels, where you fail at -3.

All this is assuming the impossible, that some T stayed in the blood after the plasma is removed, and that the athlete was completely stupid. So even if the impossible happened, it’s still not enough to trigger a positive.

tom

Rant November 11, 2006 at 9:40 pm

Tom,

What you say is emminently logical. No arguments from me. What the people who AFT talks to have to say probably has very little to do with actual science and more to do with pseudo-science or a misundertanding of science than anything else. Who AFT’s sources might be and their veracity, since he’s witholding their names (as well as his own), is really hard to judge.

But if we take him at his word, and his comments really do reflect the views of some American pro cyclists, it’s more indicative to me of what kind of practices they may have in the doping arena than anything else. I don’t think Landis blood doped with blood laced with traces of synthetic testosterone. And your analysis just goes to show that the real effect on the CIR/IRMS reading would not be enough to trigger a positive result.

But what people believe and what’s really true are sometimes not the same thing. Unfortunate but, I’m afraid, true.

– Rant

landsharp November 12, 2006 at 5:50 am

A sidebar to RYHO,
My wife and I raced in Columbia, MO in the early 90s (with Ethan, Aaron, Jim Mc, etc…).

s.

Rant November 12, 2006 at 6:22 am

Landsharp,
I was at J-School in Columbia, MO about 10 years before that, back when Paul Fancher was riding strong and gunning for the Coors Classic. Ran into him at Masters Nationals in 93 at Babler State Park on a wickedly hot and humid day while racing the Masters 30+ Road Race championships. I managed to finish the race (as Fancher did, too), which half of our field failed to do. I actually didn’t start racing until 1990, when I got bitten by the racing bug but good.
– Rant

really inside November 12, 2006 at 9:07 am

just to be part of the gan reminiscing, I raced the Apple Cup a few times, back in the day. Some of the old co-horts were the Spirit of St. Louis crew of Mike Nodler (RIP) and Kevin Livingston.

Those were the good ol days

Joe November 13, 2006 at 8:01 am

A question for Thomas A. Fine:

If what you say is true about testosterone, how can there EVER be a positive testosterone result unless you test someone’s blood/urine within an hour after they took testosterone? It seems that according to your analysis it’s basically impossible to get a reading because everything decays so fast?

Thomas A. Fine November 16, 2006 at 4:10 pm

Hi Joe,

The T test is a urine test, not a blood test.

The point is the the T leaves the BLOOD really quickly, not the body. After it’s in the blood, it goes to various parts where it might be stored, or might be used. Ultimately the metabolites have to spend some
time in the kidneys and some more time in the urine. The metabolites accumulate in the urine and therefore you can (in theory) see a significant change there.

Research indicates that the changes in metabolites are visible for up to 40 hours after T is introduced
into the bloodstream. But these changes are visible in the urine, and NOT the blood.

tom

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