What Are The Odds?

by Rant on November 21, 2006 · 4 comments

in Doping in Sports, Floyd Landis, Tour de France

It’s been a busy day for the Rantster. Haven’t had a lot of time to read everything on TBV yet, but a couple of things caught my eye. Duckstrap has an excellent post on the Daily Peloton Forums with a very thoughtful analysis of why he believes the evidence in the lab pack can’t support a guilty finding. And TBV quotes Floyd Landis, posting in an online forum:

… What percent error would be reasonable to inflict upon someone the penalty which I have already paid. To be more clear, what is an acceptable margin of error for a test with such stakes?

This has me thinking: Just how accurate does a test have to be to be definitive?

What standard do we set in order to guarantee that a medical test gives us the proper result, and neither a false positive nor a false negative? Think, for a moment, about a test that may have life-and-death implications: the AIDS test. Just what would a “tolerable” false positive or false negative rate be?

One in one hundred? That’s pretty easy to answer. That’s way too many false positives. Imagine how many lives could be adversely affected if people thought they were infected, but in fact weren’t. And flip the coin to the other side, false negatives. One in a hundred tests yielding a false negative is as bad, or even worse, because that person could engage in risky behavior that might result in the infection of other people.

One in a thousand tests false negative or false positive? Still too many.

How about one in a million? Getting closer to an acceptable rate, but could that still be too many? It’s a tricky question to answer, isn’t it?

Now think about the accuracy of a test. How many times is a test correct, regardless of negative or positive result. Is only one wrong result in a million an acceptable rate for an AIDS test? How about a DNA test used in a murder trial?

Think about the OJ Simpson case for a minute. During his trial, the DNA evidence presented by the prosecution was said to have an accuracy of such that only one other person out of a million billion (edited per a comment to the original) would match Simpson’s DNA. Pretty accurate, eh?

Sure, but then think how many people live in the metro Los Angeles area inhabit this world. Several million Five or six billion, right? So, even with a test that accurate, there could have been a few other people in Los Angeles walking around whose DNA samples matched the evidence from the crime scene. Is that enough to show reasonable doubt? I suspect it was for the jurors.

If the DNA test would only match one other person out of ten million billion or a hundred million billion, it would have been more convincing, wouldn’t it? Simpson managed to find the magic “Get Out of Jail Free” card. Or almost free. He’s got some pretty hefty legal judgments against him that I doubt will ever be paid in full.

And as the outcry over his book and TV interview shows, there are many who scorn the man. But he’s still out there on the golf courses, looking for his wife’s “real” killer. (Perhaps he should look in the mirror.)

Anyway, let’s get back to the main character in this sad saga: Floyd Landis. He’s paid a hefty price already. He’s lost his job. He’s lost the respect of his peers (and many of the general public, as well). He’s lost his best friend. His life-long dream has turned into a nightmare. But is what’s happened to him justified? Are the tests accurate enough to guarantee that there’s no other conclusion but that he doped his way to victory on Stage 17?

No, I don’t think so. But I’m not sure that it’s a slam dunk for the Landis side, either. There’s a lot of variables at play here, and some missing information that LNDD hasn’t provided. Some of that may bolster the anti-doping lab’s case and some of that information may bolster Landis’ case. After reading Duckstrap’s analysis, I’m of the opinion that odds are the reported results can’t support a guilty finding.

There’s a lot we don’t know about the case, even though Floyd has posted the lab documentation package for all to see. First and foremost is what the defense strategy really is. I’m wondering if the slide shows have been test runs to see what presentations give the best traction to their arguments, and which arguments work better.

Clearly, it’s a PR effort aimed at shoring up his battered image. I have a sneaking suspicion that there are things in the lab pack that Landis’ team knows about, but haven’t pointed out yet, so as not to show all their cards. If that’s part of the strategy, I sure hope it works.

Landis, himself, notes that this is a war where the winner gets nothing, but the loser loses everything. Which brings me back to a question I’ve asked a number of times: Assuming the ultimate outcome is not a guilty finding, who can or will give back to Floyd Landis everything he’s lost in the last four months? What are the odds that anyone can?

Steve's Peeves November 22, 2006 at 6:01 am

Rant,

Just a few facts to clarify a bit: In everyday life, confidence in medical tests for disease states is sometimes boosted by repeating the tests over time. Yearly Pap tests are a good example. A theoretical test with a .1% (1 in a 1,000) false negative rate, when performed again (usually with a different prep technician, reagents, and cytotechnologist, since a year has past) produces false negative odds of 1 in 1,000,000.

Similarly, in the Simpson case, as with most DNA evidence, multiple areas of the DNA code (“foci”) are matched to increase the level of confidence. In Simpson’s case, 8 foci were used, and tested at multiple laboratories, putting the odds of a mismatch at approximately 1 in a billion. If that doesn’t sound good enough, consider that there might be 5 other people in the entire world that might match that DNA profile.

There’s a good article on this subject at http://www.wehi.edu.au/resources/vce_biol_science/articles/finkel2.html.

The concept of repeatability, and the multiplicative nature of statistical confidence with repeated tests is one reason why Dick Pound is horribly misguided when he suggests that B samples are unnecessary. It also argues strongly that the B sample should be tested at a different lab, in an attempt to rule out systemic problems.

All the moreso when one of the labs is LNDD, which has a history of mistakes. See http://classic.mountainzone.com/news/pezzo3.html (two positives from LNDD, overturned) and http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/jan98/jan11.html (start with the “Chronology” and continue).

-Steve

Debby November 22, 2006 at 6:23 am

Most all of us know someone that has received a false positive or inaccurate test result from a doctor. Lots of worry, to be sure, but the doctors usually warn their patients to wait for a second test before anything is proven. The stakes (other than being diagnosed with a terrible illness, later confirmed, of course) are never so high as the price Floyd has paid.

I have gone over and over this in my mind…if he is found not guilty, what can we reasonably expect? Is there a team that will make room for him? Will the sponsors that shied away now come back with (probably more modest) offers of advertisements, etc? Will his hometown and adopted home town have those long delayed welcome parties? Will President Bush still invite him to the White House?

Worse, if he is found guilty despite the fact that these tests are so inconclusive, what sort of life will he have? If he can’t ride his bike, how will he earn a living to support his family? Will these so-called “drug tests” have to be disclosed on job applications? (maybe silly, but maybe not).

Perhaps the public at large doesn’t care about cycling in general or Floyd in particular, but I think the larger issues of how much damage sloppy testing can do affects all of us. There is a new issue of ProCycling out (Shreck is on the cover) that contains an article with interviews about why some cyclists are “staying at home,” meaning refusing to ride in Europe. I think they have counted the cost of racing there, and decided it wasn’t worth it.

———————————————————–
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. I know this year will be hard, but please know you are in our thoughts.

Rant November 22, 2006 at 6:35 am

Steve,

Thanks for pointing that out. One in a billion odds seems pretty definitive to me. Even if there were 5 people walking the earth that could possibly match Simpson’s DNA on those 8 foci, I think the likelihood of one of those individuals being in Los Angeles on that fateful day to commit that crime are smaller still. So, that only bolsters my own view that OJ was guilty as sin.

Thanks also for the links on repeatability. When I get a few moments, I’ll go and read them.

Debby,

Excellent points. I have no idea what lies ahead for Floyd, whether he is found to be guilty of doping or not. I can well imagine that talented riders might choose to stay Stateside rather than risk the torture that Floyd has endured. I’ll have to pick up a copy of ProCycling. Thanks for the good wishes. It’s not going to be easy, but one day at a time we muddle through.

– Rant

Theresa November 23, 2006 at 12:07 am

Rant, you summarize the comments from Steve and Debby, very well. And besides agreeing with you on OJ, if WADA doesn’t overhaul their procedures, then they are not paying attention. I hope once the hearing starts for Floyd, that these weaknesses in the system will be addressed, and if not…the cyclists better start a union! I love European racing, but I’d probably stay stateside for awhile to see if things improve in Europe. The guys that are already over there, are putting up with the system as they have before.
I’ve been worried about Floyd’s future, too. If he is cleared( he will be! He has to be cleared or the whole thing is one big joke!), what will he get back that he has lost? If anything. Will there be snarking that he beat the system on a technicality, or will the world say, let’s fix what’s wrong with this to protect the athletes. I’d like to think we are enlightened enough to ditch something that is not working and come up with something better. But the (white)guys, that run cycling at the top, may not like giving up their fiefdoms. I like what Pedro Delgado says about testing cyclists. He brings up the point that in other sports the top players would never put up with the crap the cyclists do in testing. They just would refuse to perform.
Well, I had a point to make, I hope it’s in there somewhere. I haven’t received my new issue of Cycle Sport yet, I hope I get it soon.

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