Rest Day

by Rant on July 12, 2010 · 36 comments

in Cycling, Floyd Landis, Lance Armstrong, Tour de France

Now that the World Cup is over and the Tour de France riders are on their first rest day, it seems like a good time to catch up. By the way things are going in what some on Twitter are calling LandisGate, it appears that at least a few people who are participating in the 97th edition of the Grande Boucle are going to be participating in a whole different kind of stage race — the Tour de Feds — when that event in France comes to an end in a couple of weeks’ time.

A Wall Street Journal story that appeared over the weekend suggests that various riders in the pro peloton, and at least one former pro (that being Tyler Hamilton) will be interviewed by ace Balco investigator Jeff Novitzky once the Tour is finished. Whether or not a certain Mr. Armstrong is concerned about any of this is unclear. In public, Armstrong says no, but who knows what lurks in the hearts of men. (The Shadow knows …)

Armstrong had a perfectly horrid day of racing on Sunday, getting caught up by three crashes, including one of his own doing. Reader Austin Cyclist pointed out in a comment to the previous post that whoever was running RadioShack’s tactics on Sunday (Johan Bruyneel, we’re looking at you), it wasn’t the best tactic to be chasing so hard on the approach to the a Category 1 climb. As AC points out, it would have been smarter to keep the same tempo as the elite group all the way to the top of the climb, and then use the downhill to make up ground. That’s pretty much what my coach told me years ago. Don’t chase up the mountain, chase hard on the downhill, when the riders ahead of you may be easing up.

Armstrong’s crash in the leadup to that first Category 1 climb, by clipping a pedal, was the kind of mistake a seasoned pro shouldn’t be making. Especially not someone who used to have an almost Zen-like ability to avoid such mishaps. However it happened, St. Lance wasn’t thinking clearly at the time. Maybe his brain wasn’t getting the oxygen it needed, after being maxed out by chasing too hard at the wrong times. Just my guess, for what it’s worth. Most people are writing Armstrong off — including Armstrong. But somewhere, I saw a comment attributed to Alberto Contador suggesting that it’s premature to do so. Lance is the master of cycling mind games, after all.

Perhaps Contador is right. Four years ago we saw a rider give up a whole lot of time like that and then come roaring back into contention with an amazing ride the following day. Part of the reason that happened was the peloton had written Floyd Landis’ chances off and they allowed him to gain so much time, thinking he’d bonk at the end. Bad tactical move.

Assuming that the teams and their directeurs sportif learned anything from that fateful day in 2006 (and no, the lesson isn’t to hope the protagonist of a breakaway gets busted for doping), any attempt by Armstrong to pull off such a stunt will almost surely be countered by the teams of the main contenders. They won’t be counting  on the anti-doping system or Jeff Novitzky or anyone else to protect their derrieres. They’ll be expecting a move and if they’re smart, they will have plans on how to neutralize any threat Lance still poses.

If I were in a position to interview Lance right now, the question I’d ask is, “Do you regret coming back to the sport and finishing on a sour note, rather than leaving at the top?” Yeah, I know the answer would be that it’s all about cancer awareness this time around (as if that story wasn’t told and retold a bazillion times during his first comeback). It’s sad to see an athlete “un-retire” and then finally leave his sport truly humbled. Maybe a change would do Lance some good.

All kidding and snarking aside, when there’s a Federal investigation going on, it’s serious business. These things take on a momentum. If there’s anything to find that is in the slightest bit crooked, someone may well be going to jail. And the powers that be of the cycling world are clearly scared shitless, despite what they may publicly proclaim. Consider the nastygrams that Hein Verbruggen sent Floyd Landis a bit over a month ago. If Verbruggen wasn’t worried about where the ongoing investigation might lead, why on earth would he send Landis the messages he apparently sent?

No, Verbruggen is clearly concerned. Verbruggen is no stranger to allegation of corruption over the years. Bicycle racing attracts some big money. Maybe not as big as other sports, but big money nonetheless. And big money has a way of corrupting things. Sports and sporting federations are no exceptions.

Big money puts pressure on athletes to perform at 110 percent all day, everyday. It puts pressure on team owners to get results for the sponsors. And it puts pressure on federations to provide a good entertainment product for the television networks paying exorbitant fees for broadcast rights. It’s no wonder that athletes dope, teams organize doping. and federations look the other way. As long as the show goes on, and produces more an more superhuman feats, the money rolls in.

That’s as true for the International Cycling Union as it is for other sports federations as it is for the International Olympic Committee. It’s as true for the various cycling teams as it is for various professional football (either kind) teams as it is for baseball (or cricket) teams, ad nauseam. What goes on today makes the Cold War-era steroid wars between the Eastern Bloc countries and the West look like a bunch of boy scouts camping out in the woods.

So when someone threatens to spill the beans on the whole sordid enterprise — as Landis has done — the powers that be get worried. And they go into a defensive posture and proclaim that the whistleblower is mentally unstable, out for revenge, blackmailing someone, and on and on. Keep your eye on what’s really happening and not the distractions put forth to take attention away from the real issues.

The potential impact of Landis’ allegations — if the investigations prove what he said is true — is roughly akin to dropping an atomic bomb on American competitive cycling. The damage — and the collateral damage — would be huge. It could destroy the sport, or force it back to a more grassroots affair, devoid of huge sums of money and pursued by those who are out racing for the sheer joy of going fast on a bicycle.

Maybe that would be a good thing. But July sure wouldn’t be the same without the Tour de France to watch.

I’ll be back in a few days with another post (really). In the meantime, we’ll get a chance to see if Cadel Evans can hang on to the yellow jersey, or whether one of the other contenders will rip the thing off his back. With almost two weeks to go before the final lap of the Champs-Élysées, anything can happen. And it probably will.

austincyclist July 13, 2010 at 3:23 pm

On Cadel, as most of you already know, he’s now out of Yellow, and back of the bus with Lance. He is reporting a fractured elbow.. Considering that, his stage 9 attempt showed alot of courage.

On the Landis accusations, you can find some interesting nuggets hidden in the comments sections (hey, this is a comment too), see the big-toro comments in this huffington post article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-littman/lance-armstrong-chased-by_b_643340.html
The foundation accusations are something I had not heard before.. I find that hard to believe.. I find Big Toro hard to believe.. for obvious reasons.. But its still worth a read.

The last nugget out there, is the fact that Lance’s lawyers are trying to divert the attention back on Landis, with the perjury and other evil deeds done.. http://gulfnews.com/sport/other-sports/armstrong-lawyer-puts-spotlight-on-disgraced-landis-1.653520 Is not that a perfect example of how LA attacks those that question him? Risk legal action if you say anything against him, real or not. It doesn’t appear they are looking to actually pursue legal options against him at this time.. its more a recommendation to the FDA.. you’re looking at me? How about you look at Landis first.. Just like Johan’s tactics on stage 8, I don’t think this tactic is going to work either.. maybe better to wait a bit..

Cal July 13, 2010 at 4:49 pm

Looks like the investigation is gaining even more steam – subpeonas issued. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/sports/cycling/14cyclinginquiry.html?_r=1&ref=sports

Cal July 13, 2010 at 6:45 pm

AC,
I could not find the big-toro comments. What was being said?

Cal

Cub July 13, 2010 at 7:42 pm

I sure don’t get the feeling that Floyd’s coming out and the subsequent investigation of Armstrong and the US Postal and Discovery teams is going to do much to further the cause of clean sport. It looks more and more like it’s going to be all about taking down Lance.

Maybe some of the legal types here can explain how the US Postal Service or Discovery were defrauded. Didn’t Johan, Lance and the other team members deliver everything the sponsors could have hoped for and more? Does breaking the rules of a sport always mean you defrauded your sponsor, or is it fraud only if your contract has a clause in it about following the rules? Does it matter that the associations of Johan and Lance with the US Postal Service and Discovery Channel ended years ago? I don’t see how those sponsors are going to be damaged by anything that is revealed now. Radioshack yes, but not US Postal or Discovery.

Eightzero July 13, 2010 at 8:09 pm

Cal has it. Federal grand jury subpoenas out. Story in the velonews too. http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/07/news/report-subpoenas-issued-in-probe-into-floyd-landis-allegations_128804

Fat is in the fire now. This ain’t a game anymore.

MikeG July 14, 2010 at 1:05 pm

Reaction from LA regarding the Federal investigation:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/07/news/lance-armstrong-hits-back-at-systematic-doping-allegations-addresses-ownership-of-usps-team_128907
It’s interesting what he doesn’t say; “There is absolutely no way I forced people, encouraged people, told people, helped people, facilitated… Absolutely not. One hundred percent.” “I can’t speak to what they did themselves,” he said to reporters outside the RadioShack team bus. “I can’t control that. It would be like me asking you, do you think there is any abuse of performance enhancing drugs in the NFL in the offensive line? Most people would say probably yes. But does that mean that (NFL quarterback) Peyton Manning is guilty? I mean, I can’t control what other riders do. I really can’t.”

He also said he did not believe any former USPS rider would corroborate Landis’ claims that Armstrong doped while on the team, and along with team director Johan Bruyneel, taught Landis how to dope.

I find it kind of odd he does not specifically deny doping himself. It’s always “I’ve never tested positive”, and now “he can’t control what others do”…

INDICT FRAUD LANDIS July 14, 2010 at 1:59 pm

“Further the cause of clean sport”… You’re JOKING, right? This VENDETTA has NOTHING to do with ‘clean sport’.

Four years ago, I would have cared about these accusations & worried myself sick whether they were true. Now, thanks to FRAUD Landis, the PIECE OF SHIT THAT STOLE MY FREAKIN MONEY, I do NOT CARE. If I hadn’t been a fan of Lance’s before, I would be NOW.

Just tell me something, cycling fans, HOW does DESTROYING every big American pro-rider of the last decade help “clean sport”? How does it help further cycling as a PRO sport in the USA? Seriously, lay it out for me. The MOST it will do is keep American money & teams out of the pro-peloton. It won’t touch the European powers at all. If Festina & OP didn’t stop doping in pro-cycling do you really think a bike-doping scandal in AMERICA will? But kill American pro-cycling for a generation? Sure. And Rant, YOU certainly seem nonchalant about losing ALL televised cycling in the USA, even the Tour. Guess that will free you up to watch some MMA. A “sport” surely untouched by such a sordid thing as DOPING….

The biggest LIE of all is that Landis is doing this to “clear his conscience”. The man HAS no conscience. He said in his OWN INTERVIEWS that if he had been able to ride, he’d have said nothing. Well, gee, HOW could he have LIVED with the “GUILT”?

This is a man who said repeatedly that the Olympics were a crock of shit. He would never participate. I should have known right then what kind of man he really was. He doesn’t care about his teammates, friends, or even his COUNTRY. The man cares about himself & will do & say ANYthing to hurt those he deems as responsible for his pathetic life.

The only FRAUD committed was that by Landis.

Cal July 14, 2010 at 3:58 pm

To IndictFraudLandis:

And the converse question is also true, “How will looking the other way promote a clean sport?”

It appears that your argument is that if Festina did not clean up the sport, there is no hope of a clean sport. We should therefore, look the other way because it will kill sponsorship which will kill cycling. That basically sounds like an argument for the status quo. It is a very weak argument in my opinion.

It sounds more like you are angry with Landis. However, you fail to see the importance of a federal investigation. This is much bigger than Floyd Landis.

Jeff July 14, 2010 at 8:39 pm

To IndictFraudLandis:
I’m tempted to cut you a check for the funds you think were stolen from you by Floyd, if you’d simply agree to shut the f*&k up on that narrow point. Fact is, you made a bad choice and are apparently experiencing an extreme case of buyer’s remorse. Internet blog identity name change notwithstanding, you’ve previously been offered advise on what you might do to attempt to recover your lost funds. Screaming about it via your web connected keyboard isn’t going to help you accomplish your goal, if recovering your funds is, in fact, the goal of your exercise.

And yeah, the olympics are a crock of excrement…..

eightzero July 14, 2010 at 9:26 pm

Hmmm…susie b is back with a new pseudonym of IFL.

But ya gotta love the email exchange published (!) in the CyclingNews:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-labels-landis-a-nuisance

Jean C July 15, 2010 at 5:09 am

IFL,

Festina changed cycling in France, many other doping case changed cycling in Germany, Italia and Belgium.

The Landis case and his confession is good for people, now less of them will be cheated by doped athletes including Armstrong.

KenB (EnvironmentalChemistry) July 15, 2010 at 6:53 am

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/armstrong-appears-to-contradict-2005-testimony/

Discusses contradictions in LA’s statements and testimony as well as LA’s fanatical (almost cult like) fan base.

I must admit I loved watching Lance destroy his competition year after year, but I wanted to be because he was a gifted athlete who just trained harder than everyone else. I didn’t want him to be the strongest athlete because of doping.

Somewhere there must be fair play and good sportsmanship.

I hope LA was clean during his TdF dominance, but I have my doubts. More than anything I want the federal investigation to run its course and to be thorough and let the chips fall where they may. If LA was dirty, let it be exposed. If at the end of the day the investigation turns up nothing, then it will be the closest we will ever come to proving LA was clean.

I do really like the idea of a truth and reconciliation commission for cycling. At the end of the day, what was done was done, all we can really do is try to find ways to make sure that going forward cycling is as clean as a sport can be and that the cheaters reliably get caught.

Cub July 15, 2010 at 6:59 am

Oops! My comments about fraud were based on older news articles that said the Novitzky investigation was to determine if the sponsors were defrauded. Now we “know” Novitzky is working for the FDA doing a criminal investigation of “any team leaders and team directors who may have facilitated or encouraged doping by their riders”. I’m not sure those things are crimes unless they involve trafficing drugs (sharing some of your own stash doesn’t count IMO), but OK.

I guess I’m not paying very close attention to the doping scandals lately. Kinda distracted by the bicycle race that’s going on. I also heard something yesterday about Levi impregnating a young Alaskan girl named Bristol, but I think I’ll withhold comments until I have time to find out more about it.

tbv July 15, 2010 at 11:57 am

Hi, INDICT FRAUD LANDIS,

How much did you contribute to the FFF and/or related entities, and do you have anything (receipt, cancelled check, signed item, flyer) that would corroborate the claim?

Supposing there were some collection of (a) a class action suit; (b) a fraud case; or (c) someone offering refunds, how would you qualify yourself as an affected party or someone available as a witness for the plaintiff/prosecution?

thanks,
TBV

Matt July 15, 2010 at 12:20 pm

My biggest problem with where this is all going is this: lets say for a moment that everything FL says is true. Lance doped his ass off and won 7 TDF’s juiced to the gills. And let’s say for a moment that whatever testimoney and evidence that eventually works it’s way to the surface proves all this. What then?

Becasue I then have to ask “was everybody else doing it also”? If they were, then juiced or not, it was still a level playing field and the best man still won…and the results still have meaning, only they would need to have an * by them as future clean riders (if there truly is there such a thing) can’t be compared to the juiced ones of old. IF everybody WASN’T doing it, then the results are surely tainted. But here’s the problem: we will never know if EVERYBODY ELSE was doing it…becasue the witch-hunt will only be focused on Lance. IF he is found guilty, that will mostly be it. The biggest fish was caught, and his results meaningless. And we will never know ‘the rest of the story’.

I’m mostly afraid that cycling is in for a ‘tsunami’ of devastation before this is all over, if it ever is all over. Certainly in the US the sport might be crushed. It may somehow actually end up as a clean sport, but I doubt it. Just the very nature of people is that we will always be looking for an edge, especially if there is fame and fortune as the prize. Taking away all the money might be the only way to clean up the sport for real…no money, no affording the goods. But it would also be it’s total downfall. Cycling is about to cut off it’s own head I’m afraid. Where we are one year from now is anybody’s guess.

Matt July 15, 2010 at 12:36 pm

Oh…to finish my thought (sorry, was eating lunch and hit ‘enter’ by mistake)…I am honestly torn about what to believe. Here’s why I’m hesitant to just believe all this is true: IF the doping was as prevalent as FL says it was, then HOW MANY PEOPLE know about this? I mean, we have bus drivers stopping the team buss in a remote mountain pass, couriers, doctors, whoever BUYS all these illicit goods, medical goods (blood bags, tubing, needles, etc)…and these are all just off the top ofmy head. And then where did all this CASH money come from to BUY the dope and necessary medical supplies? Selling extra bikes? Who sold the bikes and to who, and where exactly did the $$ go (and in what form, cash, #’s on a ledger, what?). And this is just one team. Multiply that by the entire pro peleton and you’ve probably got a thousand people that know or have a pretty good idea of what’s going on.

And you know the ONLY way to keep a secret: not tell anybody! Once two people know, it’s no longer a secret. So all of these people (not to mention that it supposedly has been going on for many many years, so add in all THOSE people from all those years past to the ‘insider total’) and you are telling me that they are ALL are keeping this most amazing secret all this time? If this is true, then our governmnet should hire them all immediatly, becasue we surley need people who can keep their mouths shut.

I just don’t believe all the ‘little people’ involved could keep this secret…if nothing else they’d be at a bar somewhere w/ billy-bob getting hammered, and whispering to them about the time they did this, saw that,etc etc…bragging to their friends about the super-cool secret only THEY know about. That is also human nature…we blab to look important. That’s my devil’s advocate view on why I’m skeptical. I’m not saying I don’t believe it’s true, but I don’t know that it’s not true either. I will do my best to keep an open mind.

Liggett junkie July 15, 2010 at 2:42 pm

Hi Jeff! I would contribute, not in cash, but in kind. There’s a library used book sale going on this weekend and I would happily pick up a $1 thesaurus for Suzie B/IHFL/Thea V. Enger (come on, you don’t have to be Don Foster to figure that one out) if she would shut up, or at least stop posting until she enriches her vocabulary some.

eightzero July 15, 2010 at 3:28 pm

KenB has it right – let the chips fall where they may. I felt this way when I donated to FFF. The credible evidence I saw at the time made me believe Floyd. I was wrong. The same for Tyler Hamilton. I was wrong. The credible evidence I’d seen until recently was to believe LA. I do want to believe he was clean, and according to Occim’s Razor, I should. But I’m seeing a pattern. Still, I don’t bet red even when I see 10+ blacks come up on the roulette wheel in a row. But should I? Isn’t it “due?” I don’t know. Perhaps I never will.

The real problem is the one Matt points out; it isn’t just the impact on the sport of cycling, but much deeper than that – LiveStrong and the Global Fight Against Cancer is deeply associated with LA’s image. LA himself went to the President (W) some years ago and asked for $1B in cancer research funds. Interestingly, I don’t see how much money Livestrong.org / LAF has received or spent on their web page, but LA himself is a Rock Star. He has an entourage. He travels in his own jet. *That* is bigger than the sport of cycling. If it is built on a lie or deception, the impact is…devastating, in ways that makes Floyd’s untruths pale in comparison.

austincyclist July 15, 2010 at 7:16 pm

some new tidbits of interest:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8785&page=5
Stephanie McIlvain recording by Lemond link
actual link: http://redirectingat.com/?id=92X588377&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fd01.megashares.com%2Fdl%2F2170045%2Fgreg-lemond-stephanie-mcilvain.mp3&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.cyclingnews.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D8785%26page%3D5

and then LAF gives 1.5 mil to the same hospital like 2 days after the betsey testimony? (might want to double check that info..) and isn’t this where they could get any doctors to back up that story? its a valid donation.. but the timing might be suspect.. http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/2569.html

William Schart July 15, 2010 at 8:37 pm

Yeah, let’s let this run its course and have the chips fall where they may. Just because the LAF does good things is no reason to give LA a pass, if he in fact did anything illegal.

But if the investigation comes up empty, so to speak, I don’t think that will be the end of all the “Lance doped” business. It is pretty much impossible, at least at this point in time, to conclusively prove he rode clean. It’s the old absence of evidence is not evidence of absence business.

Jean C July 16, 2010 at 6:50 am

Matt,

It’s true. When the Landis’ case happened I came here to explain that Lance doped, and not only with T but with blood doping too like most of other riders. Most of the people involved know: riders, mechanics, reporters,…they are “liars” too.

But it’s going to turn, it’s has begun there is a few years after Festina in France, then in Germany, Belgium and later in Italia, Nederland. Of course, it was not with the help of UCI.

Now we can hope for a world extension.

As we have already on that TDF, riders were clearly slower. Maybe the refuelling is just for Pyrenees… we will see.

William,

About evidences of Lance doping, there is EPO samples standing in Paris. Maybe Novitzky could ask Armstrong to accept a retesting of them.

eightzero July 16, 2010 at 1:52 pm

Another sign of the apocalypse: I’m agreeing with Jean C.

If Novitsky can convince a US federal judge that the samples in Paris are evidence of a crime committed in the US, I have no doubt they can be the subject of further investigation. Even more to the point, I rather suspect the French authorities will want to know as well, and simply order the testing and disclosure.

Or someone can simply send LNDD an email with LA’s permission to test from Arnie Baker’s IP address.

And William: “Just because the LAF does good things is no reason to give LA a pass…” Many people would argue just the opposite. Ends justifying the means, you know.

William Schart July 16, 2010 at 10:10 pm

Jean:

The point I was trying to make is that it is (potentially) easy to prove someone did in fact dope: tests on stored blood/urine samples, testimony of witnesses to the doping, etc. However, it is hard to prove someone didn’t dope: tests could come up negative because the samples were stored too long or improperly, or maybe negative because the doping scheme used defeats detection by current tests; witnesses may not come forth or be reluctant to testify or forget or be considered not creditable.

If the Novitski investigation fails to find LA doped, will you believe he didn’t?

William Schart July 17, 2010 at 7:31 am

A little while back we had some discussion as to whether or not presumably clean athletes should be penalized when teammates are shown to have doped. I now see that CAS has rules I favor of Marion Jones relay teammates, allowing them to retain their Olympic medals. The reasoning was that, at the time, neither the IOC nor the IAAF had a rule specifically covering this situation. The article did not really say whether or not these organizations now have such rules, if not, it’s a sure bet they and others soon will. Of course, any such newly-enacted rule would not cover any thing which occurred In the past.

Cal July 17, 2010 at 12:08 pm

Some interesting stuff – It is far beyond whether Lance doped, but discovering the other stuff – tax evasion, handing out drugs, etc. Could this be why Lance and his attorney have been positioning him to have had no ownership stake until 2007.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/16/AR2010071603512.html

Lemond also seems to be even more emboldened by getting a subpeona – http://www.sport24.co.za/OtherSport/TourdeFrance/Lemond-attacks-Lance-again-20100717

William Schart July 17, 2010 at 12:43 pm

I think this investigation is not so much about whether LA doped, but I fact is about things like tax evasion and the like. The Feds could possibly prove a number of criminal charges against various people, including LA himself, without necessarily proving that he himself doped. It may be that the investigation shows he doped, and if the anonymous reports cited in the Washington Post article are true, it sounds like there is some corroboration of Landis’ allegations.

William Schart July 18, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Jeff July 18, 2010 at 8:30 pm

The problem with LeMond is that there is almost no way he has any direct knowledge of doping practices in the current or recent professional peloton. Much of what he has commented upon is no more or no less accurate than the educated guesses made by some of the more knowledgable posters on this, and other forums.

Add that to a serious personality conflict with LA, dirty business dealings on both sides, some less than admirable actions taken by both parties…………..with the result being his (and LA’s) motivations are suspect. They have some commonalities. Not the least of which is that each will go to some absurd lengths to protect their public legacy.

Both are talented riders who seemed to stay in the game just a bit too long. From a personal perspective, I would pass on the opportunity to hang out with either of them. I try to stand clear of people who are just a little too in love with themselves, whenever possible. The same traits that made them great riders don’t seem to serve them well to make them good people. Neither seems to transition well.

I also have not heard LeMond explain how his pre-tour predictions regarding LA did not materialize. Seems to throw a bunch of crap on the wall to see what sticks. Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t. In the end, LeMond doesn’t seem to be a particularly reliable source, although he’s occasionally right and could be on the subject of the article cited by William Schart above?

austincyclist July 18, 2010 at 9:07 pm

On the accusations that now Armstrong is throwing at LeMond for the 1989 TDF..

Didn’t LeMond have explosive diarrhea attacks in the 1989 Tour? The question for the grand jury.. did he gain any benefit.. like a Jet Propulsion effect.. from the Diarrhea, that would give him a competitive advantage that wasn’t in the boundaries of the rules??

But seriously.. wonder why LA would say that..

William Schart July 19, 2010 at 10:11 am

In many ways, standard form seems to be to accuse anyone who achieves a remarkable result of doping. Lemond’s last day, come from behind win was remarkable, so it becomes a target. In truth, although is was remarkable, I don’t see anything about it that would be a strong indication of doping.

Jeff is right: GL has no direct knowledge about doping since he stopped riding. He’s in the same position as we are: look at things from a distance and form your own opinion. And we all know about opinions. But since he is pretty well known here in the US, the average Joe Public tend a to view his pronouncements as gospel. I have no problem with him making general statements about doping being bad and the like, but he should keep his opinions about who might or might not be doping to himself.

eightzero July 19, 2010 at 6:08 pm

This quote fro the Velonews is a little curious:

“LeMond, along with several of Armstrong’s former teammates, is one of several witnesses who has been issued a subpoena. He said he has “yet to decide” on whether he will go.”

Umm…it’s a grand jury subpoena. You can refuse, I suppose, but there is an unpleasant consequence.

And how do we really know GL doesn’t have direct evidence of doping? Has he testified on the record regarding the matter? Or said on a cross: “No, I’ve never seen any doping, done it myself, or assisted anyone to do so.” IIRC, he tried to testify in Davis that FL had “confessed” but it wasn’t allowed.

Wadda think: can LA “settle” this somehow? Is this not fodder for a huge study in biomedical ethics? The FDA wants to go after the LAF/Livestrong founder because…he fraudulently used illegal drugs…to launch a hugely successful medical research and cancer support organization? You want him to go to jail for ultimately helping the most desperate people? Do you want this money back in fines? Or would a “I did it, I’m sorry. Now lets all move along. ” They wouldn’t take that from Floyd, would they? And wasn’t that Floyd’s point all along? LA gets a jet, but FL can’t get a bicycle? What’s a guy gotta do – get cancer?

Wholly shamolly – don’t go down that path.

Cub July 20, 2010 at 4:45 pm

Lemond THINKS Armstrong was/is a doper. He BELIEVES Floyd is telling the truth. He doesn’t appear to KNOW anything.

Bringing in Lemond to testify makes me think either Novitzky is being extremely thorough in his investigation or he hasn’t found anything substantial yet and is on a fishing expedition.

William Schart July 20, 2010 at 7:53 pm

Well, I suppose it possible that GL has direct knowledge of what LA $ co. did 1999-2005 and beyond, but I rather doubt it. To my knowledge, he had little if any contact with them, or indeed with European cycling in general. I am not all that sure he had much contact even with cycling in the US. In fact, my impression is that following his retirement, he pretty much put cycling in his past, except for his bike business.

But then his bike brand is run by Trek, who also supplied bikes to the Moto-Postie-Disco continuum. He possibly could have info about Trek which could bear on the question of bikes for drugs.

My guess is that Novitsky is being thorough. GL is well known, and well known for his statements on LA and FL and drugs. And he has now made the statement about LA paying someone to accuse him (GL) of doping. Novitsky would be seen as remiss if he didn’t look into these things.

eightzero July 21, 2010 at 9:36 am

By definition: Grand Jury = fishing expedition.

And boy, don’t the interviews on Vs with Frankie Andreau and LA seem…cordial? Wonder if there’s something waiting for Frankie when he returns to US jurisdiciton? I’m a little surprised we haven’t heard about Betsy having been visited by an investigator or process server.

Rant July 21, 2010 at 11:00 am

My wife and I were talking about the cordiality between Frankie and Lance just last night. Who knows, if LA is really going to retire, maybe he’s hoping Frankie can help him muscle Craig Hummer out, so Lance can pair up with Bobke for the pre-game show next year. After all, once he’s “retired” again, he’ll need to occupy his time somehow. 😉

Haven’t heard much from Betsy lately. Maybe that’s because I don’t frequent certain discussion forums.

Jeff July 23, 2010 at 10:59 pm

In my July 18 post, ~6 posts above in this thread (Rest Day), I noted that I had not seen an explanation from GL regarding his incorrect pre 2010 TdF predictions about LA.

Here is at least one explanation published today:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/greg-lemond/bravo-to-the-new-generation
I don’t find it particularly convincing or enlightening. YMMV.

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